Talk:Princess Iron Fan/subtitles

From PhilipWiki

Contents 1 Hey there 2 Edited and translated 3 Sections 4 Names needing translation 5 A few notes 5.1 1 5.2 2 5.3 3 5.4 4 5.5 5 5.6 6 5.7 7 5.8 8 5.9 9 5.10 10 5.11 11 6 French translation 7 Moving ahead 8 Subtitles for your testing convenience 9 More notes 9.1 1 9.2 2 9.3 3 9.4 4 9.5 5 9.6 6 9.7 7 9.8 8 10 Getting closer 11 All done

Hey there

I very much look forward to the completion of this project. I'll try and see if I can find someone who is willing to help. I have in mind this wikipedia editor, who's created tons of articles about Chinese animation. I use a great program called Subtitle Workshop for subtitles, which then can save them in .ssa format. They can then easily be added with a program like VirtualDub. How're you planning to do this technically? Esn 09:27, 31 March 2007 (CEST)

I'd be very greatful for any help you could provide! As you can see, the format I'm editing in right now is SRT without the leading numbers. This way it's easy to change the timing, merge subtitles and add subtitles. When the subtitles are complete, I'll simply write a script to add the numbers to make it a proper SRT. I would like to make a hardsubbed version available on archive.org, but I haven't given that much thought yet. Philip 12:15, 31 March 2007 (CEST)

Edited and translated

What exactly is the purpose of the category "edited and translated"? I think a good idea, by the way, would be to have a new section every 10 or 20 minutes. So that one can edit smaller chunks. Esn 02:58, 1 April 2007 (CEST)

I thought it was you who added that. If not, I don't know who added these sections. Anyway, I don't know if they are really useful but I'll leave them alone and see if she/he who added them had anything in mind. 05:03, 1 April 2007 (CEST)

You're right that having dividing it into smaller sections by scene makes sense, maybe I'll see to that in a while. Philip 05:05, 1 April 2007 (CEST)

Sections

I've split the subtitles into 18 sections of more manageable size. I didn't know what to make of the final/edited/translated sections, so I inserted a marker at the point to which the anonymous editor had edited. Anonymous editor, I hope you continue to contribute! Philip 07:23, 1 April 2007 (CEST)

I don't understand any Asian language, but I've proof-read the English translation a bit and added some notes about confusing sections. I changed the use of "OK" to "all right" in a few places - "OK" is more light-hearted and slang-ish. It's fine for some places, but not for others. "Fine" can also be used in place of "OK" (in some places). Esn 07:58, 1 April 2007 (CEST)

That's great! I am not a native speaker of English or Chinese, so your help is much appreciated. The translation has been done by a few different people (including me) and I too don't understand what some of the English translations are supposed to mean. I hope some native Chinese speakers might be able to help out with the most troublesome sections. Philip 09:03, 1 April 2007 (CEST)

Names needing translation

• 大唐圣僧
• 雷公菩萨 (God of Thunder)
• 红孩儿 (Red Child)
• 施主 (what a buddhist monk will call he who gives him food) - "benefactor"? "helper"? "good giver"? Is there a term that English-speaking buddhists use for this?
• 呆子 (Fool)

A few notes

Just posting a few of my proposed changes here and the rationale, as well as some questions about the changes you made. Please comment in the sections... :) Esn 05:10, 2 April 2007 (CEST)

My answers inline. You'll probably want to answer inline too. Philip 14:08, 2 April 2007 (CEST)

1

I'm asking you to make a little effort for master. Can't you do that?
->
I'm asking you to make a small effort for your? master. Can't you do that?

It's either "the master", "your master", "our master", "my master"... Which do you think is the more correct translation?

Master is his title (they often call him Master). Would it be OK if I capitalized Master? The same goes for alot of places, like Palm Leaf Cave. I think it sounds better with "She lives in Palm Leaf Cave", as in "She lives in Los Angeles". Does this upset the sensibilities of native English speakers? There are alot of cases like this, so not changing until I get some feedback.

Sure, I think that would be fine.

2

Dare you come here to meet your death? vs.
You dare come here to meet your death?

Both of these are correct English, but their meaning is very different. In the first one, he's taunting him, eg. "are you brave enough to come here, knowing that you'll die?". In the second, he's outraged and angry, eg. "How dare you do this?!" Which of these sounds more like the correct tone?

The first

Having watched it again I think the second is better, it's said with some indignation and not taunting. Philip 14:30, 3 April 2007 (CEST)

3

Fool, now it's certainly your turn to go. vs.
Fool, now it's definitely your turn to go.

Not quite sure why this one was changed - either one seems correct to me, only "certainly" has fewer syllables than "definitely".

Definitely just felt more Monkey.

4

It's a pity I didn't kill her. vs.
I should go and kill her!

This is a big change... is the second version really closer to what the Chinese text says?

I'm not certain, it's abit above my level of Chinese to distinguish whether or not he is refering to the past or not, but it makes more sense in the context this way. Marking as needing help by native Chinese speaker.

5

Taking me out might cause you to lose face. vs.
Taking me outside might cause you to lose face.

I'm not sure what the meaning here is supposed to be. Is "taking me out" supposed to be something like "dating"?

It's litterally "(me) going outside with you might cause you to lose face"

6

You didn't know, so I can't blame you. Off you go! vs.
You didn't know, then I can't blame you. Off you go!

The first version is more grammatically-correct. The second version would be ok if it started as "If you didn't...". Which of the two is closer?

The Chinese is always very compact, so it's impossible so say which conjunctions are the closest. I believe that it's OK for the translation to deviate by a fair bit as long as the tone and meaning are the same. In this case, I'll just revert.

7

Here, let me see the fan. vs.
Hey, let me see the fan.

"hey" is a more slang-ish and more direct (also for shouting from a distance), whereas "here" is more proper and persuasive. Which of the two is more accurate in the situation?

Hey

8

But who knew that he would turn into your look-alike and trick it back? vs.
But then Old Bull turned into your look-alike and tricked me into giving it back.

So is it originally a question or not? If it's originally a question, there are better ways of saying it, eg. "But who knew that Old Bull would turn into your look-alike and trick me into giving it back?"

In Chinese rethorical questions are used much more than in English, so it doesn't make sense to always translate questions in questions. Literally, "who knew that he turned unto your shape and tricked (it) back to him?". It's not a question, it just expressed that it was unexpected. A simple "but" will suffice.

My concern is: does it sound like a question when it is spoken? I'm worried of the translation not matching up to the sound. (I haven't actually watched that part)

No, it is said with disappointment. It's a good point you make, I'll pay attention to turning anything that sounds like a question into a statement.

9

Old Cow's skills are great. vs.
Old Bull is really skillfull.

So the original name is definitely "Old Bull" rather than "Old Cow"? I think "skills are great" sounds more classy than "really skillfull", so I prefer the former. But which one is closer to the original text?

Cow, Bull and Ox are all the same in Chinese, so... google likes "Bull Demon King" or "Ox King", and I went with the former because it's closer to the original. Changing back to "skills are great" though.

10

Where... is there no fire? vs.
Which... in which direction is there no fire.

The second version makes less sense than the first... I'm confused.

I found this a bit awkward, don't know how this question would be asked in English. He wants to know in which direction (north, east, south, west) there isn't fire. Trying "In which... which direction is there no fire?", what do you think? By the way, all the "..." is to represent the stuttering of this character.

I think "Where... where is there no fire?" would be more accurate, then.

Oh, I see you changed it to "In which... which direction is there no fire?" That's definitely the better version. Putting the "in" in a different place makes all the difference.

11

We have heard the order of master this should probably be:
We have heard the order of our master

He's their master, right?

Again, it's his title. If you insist on something before "master", it would be "the", but that sounds stupid becaues it makes it seem like there is only one master. Will change as agreed above.

Sure, it's ok if it's capitalized.

French translation

After the English translation is completed, I wouldn't mind doing a French translation. I'm just a bit below the level of being fluent in French, but I think I'll be able to create a workable version which can then be filled out by members from the animation wikiproject on the French Wikipedia (how come there's one over there but not one on the English Wikipedia... hmm). Would you be willing to donate a subpage for this task? Esn 05:22, 2 April 2007 (CEST)

Alternately, it could be done on this very page - the french line could be added right below the English one. I will have to copy both of them for the french translation, anyway, since it'll be a translation of the English translation (at least initially - maybe we'll find someone who understands both Chinese writing and French). Esn 05:27, 2 April 2007 (CEST)

I'd prefer you to not add French to the current version. You are of course free to go wild on some other page, maybe Princes Iron Fan/sous-titres? If you're willing to wait until the English subtitles are a little more true to the original, I will help you to comment out all the English with # so that it won't get so messy when wanting to get rid of it later. Philip 13:04, 2 April 2007 (CEST)

Yes, of course I'd rather wait until the English translation is more complete. Esn 14:21, 2 April 2007 (CEST)

Moving ahead

I think that the problems that remain in the translation are due to my insufficient Chinese skills. Therefor, in order to move forward, I will try to find some suitable forums to ask for help translating/explaining those tricky parts. Philip 14:42, 2 April 2007 (CEST)

The Internet moves at amazing speed. The results are in.

Some answers on http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?t=16563

This what I wrote on http://bbs.tsinghua.edu.cn/bbscon.php?board=Movie&id=12851:

发信人: foolip (foolip), 信区: Movie
标  题: 《铁扇公主》清帮这个瑞典人了解一下
发信站: BBS 水木清华站 (Tue Apr  3 00:25:43 2007), 站内

大家好，我从瑞典来的，正在北京语言大学留学呢。我对中国电影很感兴趣，尤其是老电影。我在http://foolip.org/wiki/Princess_Iron_Fan写英文字幕时遇到了些麻烦，希望会有人来帮帮忙。

如果你想看这部卡通片的话就上http://www.archive.org/details/princess_iron_fan下载。

下面是我不懂的地方

一个人讲火焰山的情况：

1.

你看这儿有一千多里的路有一位铁扇公主
她有一把芭蕉扇
一扇呢，火就熄了
两扇呢，风就来了
三扇呢，就下雨了
我们就从这个时候播种收割

他的意思是不是铁扇公主主的地方离火焰山以前里？还有，下雨时他们做什么？播种、收割都做吗？这怎么可能？那他的意思应该是什么？

2.

“令郎已成正果”是什么意思？片子中有两个地方用：

公主：我的孩子红孩儿不是你害死的吗
悟空：令郎已成正果，怎么说老孙害他呢

后来猪八戒还说“令郎已成正果，请大哥不必再计较吧”

3.

“我非杀了她不可”是什么意思？是表达后悔吗:“我没有杀死她真可惜”？还是表达一个建议:"我应该杀死她“？还有可能是另一个意思…

4.

牛魔王说“早晚来了抓着他，让我们夫妻出出恨”。在这里，“出恨”是什么意思？他的意思是不是抓着孙悟空后才可以放心？

5.

“当心给他们骗了去”的“当心”是什么意思？是不是“骗他们你要小心”？

6.

最后一个问题。猪八戒从铁扇公主偷走了扇子后他唱下面的：

牛大嫂太风骚
众小妖都俊俏
老猪真有点受不了
心机巧，手段妙
居然骗得了无价宝
这一番劳苦功高
沙僧该拜倒
猴儿该领教
师父也要吓一跳
我老猪也有今朝
我老猪也有今朝

有两行不太懂。“众小妖都俊俏“的意思是不是牛大嫂什么难的都喜欢，甚至小妖？

最后一行我也不懂。”今朝“是什么呀？他想说他也很厉害吗？

And the replies I got:

寄信人: listforangel (人生如戏，但求得知己)
标  题: Re: 《铁扇公主》清帮这个瑞典人了解一下
发信站: 水木清华 (Tue Apr  3 06:27:30 2007)
来  源: 128.163.158.67

你好，有关你的问题：

1.answer：这个问题的答案我不完全确定，你可以找其他人验证一下

他的意思是，铁扇公主住的地方离当地有一千多里，如果没有铁扇公主的芭蕉扇，火焰山的火就会一直燃烧，每年他们都会给铁扇公主送很多礼物和财产，借芭蕉扇来使用，扇三下，把火焰扑灭，这样火焰就会在相当长的一段时间内不会燃烧，他们就利用这段时间种粮食，等到一段时间之后，粮食成熟了，就收割，收割的粮食够一年吃的了，这一年就不用再借芭蕉扇灭火了，唐僧师徒来的时候，应该是他们已经收割了粮食或者还没有开始新的一轮播种的时候，而这个时候火焰山的火是在燃烧着的

2.answer:
令郎 是 古代中国人对于交谈对象的儿子的尊称。例如：我和mike再聊天，我对mike说，“令郎长的真高。”就是说mike的儿子的个子很高，而且语气比较客气。在片子中指铁扇公主的儿子－红孩儿

已成：已经成为，已经完成 的意思

正果：佛教用语。古代神话的分级制度基本是这样的：“天 地 神 人 鬼”，最高级的是天仙，相当于上帝的级别，住在天堂里面，普通人见不到；稍微低一些的是地仙，住在大地上，一般都是住在海上孤岛或者很高的山峰里面，普通人要有很大的勇气和毅力才可以见到。然后就是神仙，像玉皇大帝就是神仙的首领，普通人一般也是见不到神仙的，但是神仙要负责一些和普通人生活相关的工作，比如龙王负责下雨啊之类的，所以神仙和普通人的生活是有一定的关系的，普通人要通过祭祀表示对神仙的尊敬，神仙也要认真负责他们应该负责的工作，比如龙王负责下雨，每年下多少，什么时候下，他不能随便来，也要根据玉皇大帝的制定的工作准则，比神仙级别低的就是人，比人级别低的就是鬼。人（或者动物）如果希望成为神仙或者更高级的仙就要通过修行来完成，如果他能够通过严酷的修行的考验最后成为神仙或者更高级的仙，就叫做修成正果。正果就是通过修行的考验之后得到的那个结果。（这些是很粗略的解释，如果需要很准确的解释要查看很多资料）。

在片子里面，红孩儿原来在火焰山当妖精，后来被观音大师收为门徒之后就算是成为了神仙，所以就算是修成正果，当然成为神仙的代价就是不能再陪在母亲的身边，这就是铁扇公主憎恨孙悟空的原因。

3。answer：意思是“我一定要杀了他”“I swear to kill him”

4.answer:“出恨”就是“发泄仇恨”的意思，也就是平常我们说的“解气”

5。answer：“当心”的意思就是“要小心”“be careful”这句话写完全的话就是“要小心，这件东西不要被别人骗走！”。

6。“牛大嫂太风骚，众小妖都俊俏”在这里其实是一种嘲笑挖苦的表达，真正的意思“铁扇公主还是很厉害的，她手下的小妖也都算是训练有素的”，既然我猪八戒的敌人都是厉害而且训练有素的，我猪八戒仍然可以把宝贝骗出来，证明猪八戒更厉害，这一段是猪八戒成功之后的自夸，“今朝”其实就是“今天，现在，目前，当下”，但是是一种很豪迈的表达，“我老猪也有今朝”就是说“我猪八戒也有像今天这样比其他人都厉害的时候”，是自鸣得意的意思

寄信人: cjyang (彩蝶)
标  题: Re: 《铁扇公主》清帮这个瑞典人了解一下
发信站: 水木清华 (Tue Apr  3 09:19:25 2007)
来  源: 59.66.168.50

1、意思是火焰山离这里（就那人讲的地方）有一千多里的路，而山上有一位铁扇公主。“三扇呢，就下雨了。我们就从这个时候播种收割”说得是火焰山附近气温高，降雨少，所以附近的百姓都不能耕种，只有等下雨的时候才能耕种。至于“播种收割”是突出铁扇公主管着火焰山附近所有人的生计。

2、“令郎已成正果”
“令朗”就是“你儿子”的意思，“已成正果”指“修炼成功，成为仙人”。不知道你是否了解这之前的情节，“红孩儿”（铁扇公主的儿子）被“观音菩萨”收为弟子。

3、“我非杀了她不可”，表示一种愤怒的语气，指“我一定要杀了她”，用“非...不可”可以突出强调这种愤怒的语气。

4、“当心给他们骗了去”
指自己要当心，不要被他们骗了。

5、“众小妖都俊俏”
这只是为了和上面以句对应，“俊俏”对应“风骚”。指得是牛大嫂（铁扇公主）和她的小妖们的“漂亮”。

“今朝”是“今日或达到某种地位”的意思。
“我老猪也有今朝”指“猪八戒以前显得很弱，但今天把铁扇偷来，要师父们对他刮目相看（现得他很厉害）”

建议你应该将《西游记》好好看一遍，对于了解中国的神话故事会有帮助。

发信人: xixipang (西西胖|钍人), 信区: Movie
标  题: Re: 《铁扇公主》清帮这个瑞典人了解一下
发信站: BBS 水木清华站 (Tue Apr  3 13:00:34 2007), 站内

1、先播种-〉（扇三下）下雨，浇灌庄稼-〉成熟-〉（扇两下）来风，扬谷剥粒-〉烧麦杆-〉（扇一下）火熄，继续播种-〉（循环）
2、正果就是成仙了，上天了。
3、对于没有杀她十分后悔。很想杀她。
4、恨在发泄出来之前是堵在胸口很难受的。所以要“出”来。出出恨就是要解恨。
5、小心被他们骗了。给-〉被
6、意思是：“牛大嫂是大美女，众小妖是小美女”
   “今朝”就是今天，现在。表一种自我感觉良好。

Another round of questions from me:

寄信人: foolip (foolip)
标  题: Re: 《铁扇公主》清帮这个瑞典人了解一下
发信站: 水木清华 (Thu Apr  5 21:57:08 2007)
来  源: 221.221.25.84

你好，

我还有些问题，希望你能帮忙。我先问两个汉语的问题：

猪八戒不想去找扇子，说“我不去，我要是被她一扇简直就认不得回来了”。这句话是什么意思？是不是一扇就被吹回这儿？

后来孙悟空又去找扇子，铁扇公主又扇扇子，悟空说了“这次你尽管扇，扇得我动一动，我不算男子汉大丈夫”。大概是“你扇多少我也不动”的意思，可是这个“不算男子汉大丈夫”是什么呢？

我还想问一个跟西游记有关的问题。我看了看西游记小说可是我的中文水平并不够高。

铁扇公主和老牛的儿子（红孩儿）是怎么死的？铁扇公主怪孙悟空和唐僧。他不是被观音成了神仙吗？孙悟空第一次去火焰山时差点儿被一个火怪物吃了，这是不是红孩儿？

谢谢你帮我，我的字幕已经差不多做好了。

菲利普

And the answers:

寄信人: cjyang (彩蝶)
标  题: Re: 《铁扇公主》清帮这个瑞典人了解一下
发信站: 水木清华 (Sat Apr  7 20:31:52 2007)
来  源: 59.66.168.50


1、“我不去，我要是被她一扇简直就认不得回来了”。

铁扇有很强的能力，用铁扇一扇，可以把人扇飞到很远的地方。“就认不得回来了”是指猪八戒怕被扇飞到其他很远的地方去，回不到现在的地方了。


2、“不算男子汉大丈夫”

“男子汉大丈夫”代表了一种品质，就像西方说的勇士。在中国，如果一个男子被人说为“不算个男子汉大丈夫”，就说明这个男子懦弱或是说话不算数等。（这是因为以前男女地位不平等，才有这么一种说法）


3“红孩儿”并没有死。在西游记中，红孩儿（是个妖怪）以前占了一个山头，并且捉了唐僧，要吃唐僧肉，后来孙悟空请来了观音菩萨，将红孩儿降服，并且收为弟子（也就是成为神仙了）。虽说是神仙，但是从铁扇公主看来，做神仙却远没有做妖怪来的自由，而且我记得铁扇公主这时并不知道具体的情况。至于你说的差点将孙悟空吃掉的那个怪物应该不是红孩儿。

如果你觉得看西游记的小说太难的话，可以看电视剧。

Subtitles for your testing convenience

Although the subtitles aren't complete I made a subtitle file to try out. It might be easier to spot strange translations when viewed in context. Philip 15:07, 2 April 2007 (CEST)

Just a quick note: 3:57 - what's he saying? What I find really amazing about the film is that most of it was animated on ones. Actually 24 drawings per second. Most films, then and now, were animated on twos (12FPS) or even threes (8FPS). Doing it on ones is incredibly time-consuming, but the resulting animation looks silky smooth. Esn 18:12, 3 April 2007 (CEST)

By the way, opening them in Subtitle Workshop is an easy way to edit the subtitles while watching the film. Esn 18:19, 3 April 2007 (CEST)

"But... this isn't very convenient" doesn't make a lot of sense in the context. It's got to be something else. Esn 18:22, 3 April 2007 (CEST)

"Wujong, go with your two disciple brothers" - is brothers meant in the literal sense? Are they actually his brothers? Esn 18:24, 3 April 2007 (CEST)

I have no idea what he is saying at 3:57, and it seems that people doing the Chinese subtitles didn't either because they didn't subtitle it. Perhaps I'll ask some Chinese person to listen to it and make a qualified guess. None of the characters are brothers, but they keep refering to each other as big/little brother as they do in China and other east-asian cultures. It's a bit awkward in translation, but I don't know what to do about it. BTW, I've updated the SRT file, download it again. Hopefully the "not very convenient" part makes more sense now. Philip 19:00, 3 April 2007 (CEST)

Maybe "partner" would be better? Or perhaps "fellow"? Also, is "apprentice" a better translation than "disciple". Perhaps a better version is something like "Sha Wujing, go with your two fellow apprentices." In general, though, I think all or most all cases of "brother" should be replaced by "partner". Esn 22:57, 3 April 2007 (CEST)

I'm not very happy with partner either. In east Asia, calling your friends brother expresses some kind of closeness, and I do think this should be translated into English. Nonetheless it might be confusing to those unfamiliar with Chinese culture. I'm considering adding some "cultural notes" to the top of the screen (like subbers of jdramas often do) to explain strange things, but haven't really made up my mind. Philip 03:36, 4 April 2007 (CEST)

Well, calling your friends "partner" in English also expresses some kind of closeness. The meaning of partner is somewhat different depending on the context - on the one hand you have the meaning of "partner" used in school, which is nothing special; you're forced to work with the person. On the other hand, if you call your friends partners, you're basically saying "we're a real team", which I believe is what is meant in the Chinese text. It's the closest thing I can think of to the Chinese meaning which wouldn't need Collins notes for English speakers. Esn 09:34, 4 April 2007 (CEST)

One more note: I have a feeling that the introduction (first 3 mins), while probably an accurate translation, isn't getting the right tone across. But you'd need someone who was a fluent speaker of both languages to really fix that... it seems like the translation is oversimplified, somehow. Esn 22:11, 3 April 2007 (CEST)

I sent a message to a Chinese BBS yesterday asking for some clarifications on this part. Written Chinese is rather different from spoken, so I hardly understand any of it. I'm not sure who did the translation either, so there's no one to ask... Philip 03:28, 4 April 2007 (CEST)

More notes

Hold on, I'm making a new version right now... give me an hour or so. :P Esn 23:06, 3 April 2007 (CEST)

Ok, here's the updated file. I only updated the uncontroversial things (you're -> your) and changed some of the times to be more accurate. I'll update the wiki with the new version soon. Esn 00:12, 4 April 2007 (CEST)

Um, on second thought, it would be rather time-consuming to manually convert it to the format on this page. Any suggestions? Maybe you wrote some kind of script to do that? Until anything better comes up, I'm posting the "new" version below the original one. Esn 00:17, 4 April 2007 (CEST)

I'll merge it after school, no problem. I'm a bit concerned about the timings though. I should have told you earlier, but the subtitles should be offset 200 ms to be correctly timed. I'm not sure why, but this always happens when I rip vobsub subtitles. So some of the timing fixes you made may not be what they should. I'll look over the timings when I merge. Later, I should obviously shift the subtitles. Sorry about that. Philip 03:33, 4 April 2007 (CEST)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about "offsetting". Do you mean that every single thing must be 200ms later? I'm not sure about that... I watched the film with subtitles and most of them fit perfectly - I changed a few things, but really not that much. Maybe it's because I downloaded the second version of the film, which says it has better image quality? Perhaps the first version starts in a slightly different place? Anyway, it's very easy in Subtitle Workshop to shift all subtitles 200ms one way or another... I wouldn't go about changing every single one; that would be wastefull. Just cope + paste my version into an srt file and play it with the video; you'll find that it's mostly the same. If you don't have a program which can play them alongside the film, I recommend using Subtitle Workshop (or perhaps you have your own program?). VideoLAN also allows you to temporarily add subtitles, but unlike Subtitle Workshop you can't edit the subtitles while you watch it. Esn 09:39, 4 April 2007 (CEST)

I don't use Windows, so I'm not using any program at all to edit the subtitles. I think there are some, but I can't be bothered, I just find the frame I want in a video editing program and use that time. However, you were right, on second inspection, the timing seems to already be correct. It's just the captions I added myself that seem to be off by 200 ms from what I intended. So I'll simply adjust these and let the rest be. Philip 13:14, 4 April 2007 (CEST)

So... which OS do you use? There must be a good program for this, whatever it is... Esn 01:08, 5 April 2007 (CEST)

I use (Ubuntu) Linux. I really do doubt that there is a good program. Philip 01:53, 5 April 2007 (CEST)

OK, I've merged them and updated the srt file. About the timing, this version is for the mpeg2-file. They are offset by 200 ms, so alot of the ~100 ms second changes I made I simply discarded because the perceived problem is due to this small offset. The other timing fixes are merged, with some exception where thought it was better before (again, perhaps because of the timing offset). I don't know what to make of all this timing thing, the timing that we have now is what will give a hardsubbed file with correct timings (if encoded with mencoder). If you discover any more timing problems, keep in mind that when you are watching, the subtitles appear 200 ms later then they actually should. Philip 16:46, 4 April 2007 (CEST)

Some answers inline. Philip 17:35, 4 April 2007 (CEST)

I'm still not sure what you mean by the subtitles appearing 200ms later. What program do you use to view the film with the subtitles? I've never had this 200ms problem that I'm aware of... and I've subtitled about 5 films now. Esn 01:04, 5 April 2007 (CEST)

I use mplayer to play back the movie. The timing I see when watching the DVD on my DVD-player, the timing when using the subtitles from one DVD with the video of another (this mpeg2-file) and the timing when using the srt subs with that reencoded version are all slightly different. I'm downloading the file you're using now to see if I can make some sense of this. Philip 01:53, 5 April 2007 (CEST)

Well, as I said, the program I use (Subtitle Workshop) can easily offset all the times by 200ms if there's a problem - then I can just save it as a new file with all the times offset by 200ms. Plus, most video programs that allow subtitles have a similar option as well (only they don't make a permanent change - the change only lasts while your window is open). I'm not sure if mplayer does, but VLC (which also works on Linux) has the option. Here are some subtitle creation/editing programs that work with Linux, that I've found: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. Choose the one which looks most appealing. :) Personally, I think the Gnome one doesn't look too bad - and it allows you to watch the video too, which is a plus. Esn 03:54, 5 April 2007 (CEST)

Thanks for that Esn, I'll look into it. Offsetting the subtitles isn't a problem, this isn't a question of how to fix the subtitles but rather what to fix. I've looked at the subtitles together with the avi version and this is actually exactly the timing that it should be. In other words, the 100ms fixes you made should be merged, I'll see to that. Sorry about all the confusion, the problem was with the version I'm using all along. Philip 14:02, 5 April 2007 (CEST)

1

"Wukong, where is this place?" "Anyways, we must pass here to continue westwards."

This exchange doesn't make a lot of sense.

It was "in any case" originally (did you change it?). This really is what they say. What Pig means is that no matter what this place is, they have to pass through it. I'll change it to "We must pass here to continue westwards, that much is certain." instead, that captures the meaning better.

2

"Actually... Old Bull doesn't live there. Looking for his woman when he isn't home isn't very... convenient, you see."

I'm not saying this is wrong, I just don't understand what he's implying here. Why is it not convenient to look for his woman when he's not home, and what does that have to do with him not living there?

You may note that he searches for a word before saying "convenient". I think that, at least in the bad old days, going to meet a woman when her husband isn't home just isn't polite. "appropriate" might work as well without it being a criminally bad translation I think. What do you think?

I still don't understand it. What does it mean that he's "looking for his woman"?

It means to go to her house and see if she is there (and do whatever you came to do if she is). Look as in "there was someone here looking for you". Philip 01:55, 5 April 2007 (CEST)

Wait... is Old Bull the one doing the "looking", or is it someone else? If he's the one, why would he have to look for her when he's away from home - doesn't he know where she is? And does his "mistress" actually have a husband who isn't home? Or is the woman in question Old Bull's wife? Esn 03:28, 5 April 2007 (CEST)

Old Bull doesn't live with his wife Princess Iron Fan anymore, he's run of to the foxy lady in the forest. Therefor, when they go to look for Princess Iron Fan Old Bull won't be there. For whatever reason, pig doesn't too fancy this. It's either because it's not polite to meet with another mans woman when he is not in the house or because Pig thinks it'll be easier to talk with Old Bull directly (because they are old friends). I'm really not sure which is the case. What about the translation is confusing? How can we fix it? Philip 14:02, 5 April 2007 (CEST)

Thank you! I finally understand it. Pig is reluctant to go. It's simply not clear in the way it's worded. I suggest the following version, which makes it clearer who's doing the looking, though it's not an exact translation:

"Actually... Old Bull doesn't live there./ And to come looking for his woman when he isn't home/ isn't very... appropriate, I think."

In the original version, "looking" could have referred to Bull. As in, it's not very appropriate for Bull to look for his woman when he isn't home, which is how I interpreted it originally, and which obviously made no sense. Esn 14:48, 5 April 2007 (CEST)

Since I'm not absolutely sure what about the whole thing is supposed to be inconvenient, I'll try asking a native chinese speaker on this. Philip 18:24, 5 April 2007 (CEST)

My guess is that it's inconvenient because it would make it seem like he's some kind of mannerless lout, to visit Bull's wife when Bull isn't home - which is why he's reluctant to go. At least, that's how you explained it... the problem is that the exact translation doesn't come across as very clear in English. Esn 00:47, 6 April 2007 (CEST)

3

"will blow me all the way back here. (FIXME: translation?)" This seems entirely like the correct translation, just judging from the context. Maybe the FIXME can be remvoed?

The tone is certainly right, but I suspect that he's not actually saying blown back to here. Awaiting answer from chinese speaker.

4

"Scripture are the principles between heaven and earth. They are the principles of man."

Maybe the first sentence should be "Scriptures are the links between..."? That would make more sense in English...

How about "Scripture are the principles that link heaven and earth."? I'm actually not 100% sure about the Chinese here, but close enough. If that's not clear, scripture is that book shown in the beginning, the Tripikata True Sutra.

Yes, that's perfect.

I just realized that you can't say "scripture are", so it should probably be "Scriptures are the principles that link heaven and earth." Although this may not be correct if "scripture" is just one book as you say. Is it possible to refer to it as "scriptures"? If not, you get into some tricky grammatical territory... Esn 00:58, 6 April 2007 (CEST)

I think that "scripture" is that book, but I don't know if there's just one or a bunch of them. In any case I can't really be bothered, it's just one small "s" after all. Philip 17:21, 7 April 2007 (CEST)

5

"Why am I going to get the scripture?"

What scripture is he talking about here? This is probably not a translation error, it's just not quite clear to me.

The greater story, Journey to the West, is all about going westwards to bring the buddhist scriptures to China.

6

"All right, you ahead!"

This should be either "all right, you go ahead!" or "all right, you first!"

fixed

7

"my baby"

I can't help but think that something else might be more appropriate, since "my baby" is a relatively recent term and still has that association of being used mainly by young people. Maybe: "my dear", "my darling", "my flame", "my pearl", "my sweetie"... I think any of those might be better, at least in some of that dialogue. For "Baby, what are you saying?", it works just fine, for some others, I'm not so sure. Thoughts? It seems to work for most of them, except for a few.

The Chinese is "baobei" and it sounds the same and is used the same as the english "baby". I think it's appropriate, but do point out those places where it seems out of place and we'll see what can be done.

8

"Big brother Bull."

Again, perhaps this could be changed to something like "my dearest friend Bull". Simply because the "brother" thing isn't customary in English.

I'm not too pleased with the current state of the "brother"-problem. Is it terribly confusing to actually say brother? Maybe I could add something that makes it apparent that they're not actually brothers to the first few times it is used. Also, there are actually several forms of address which I've all translated to brother. There's "big apprentice brother", "apprentice brother", "big brother", and "little brother". I actually found a blog entry disussing how to translate it: http://yanfeng.org/blog/604/ Since whatever it is translated to is a little awkward, perhaps just leaving it out when not actually needed would be a solution. I've actually done that a little already, sometimes using "you" instead.

Getting closer

It's getting closer to finished now. I found out that term I had translated with brother actually means senior/junior classmate. Therefor, I simply translated it to senior/junior. I know this sounds a little funny, but I hope it's OK. The introduction is still rubbish and I need to find a very patient Chinese person to explain it to me before attempting a translation. The SRT file will be updated shortly. Philip 19:01, 7 April 2007 (CEST)

Excellent! I was wondering about that "baby" thing... ;) the use of "senior" is a bit unusual, but it's probably the best thing under the circumstances... at least, I can't think of anything better. Anyone watching it will just chalk it up to the language difference, I'm sure, and at least it requires no explanation like "brother" would have. If I may ask a question, what program do you use to convert the text on the wiki page into an srt file and vice versa? Esn 03:58, 8 April 2007 (CEST)

I just edit in the wiki directly, since most I've the time I'm not watching while I'm editing. Converting the wiki to SRT I do with a small python script. But merging changes to an SRT file back into the wiki is kind of painfull, so I prefer not to edit the SRT file. All of this is kind of suboptimal, but I'm not sure how else to collaborate via a wiki. The obvious solution is to just use SRT format directly on the wiki, perhaps the pros of that outweigh the cons (no sections, no inline chinese comments). Philip 05:59, 8 April 2007 (CEST)

Hmm... would it be possible to write a script to convert it to the version in the wiki, along with the foreign-language text? I admittedly I know almost nothing about programming. You're right that for most films (especially ones where the original text isn't available in written format and the translating must be done through the soundtrack), using the plain srt format for editing on the wiki would be better. Editors could simply import it and change it in the subtitle-editing program of their choice, then open it in notepad, ctrl+a, ctrl-x, and ctrl-v it back into the wiki. Simpler changes could be done directly into the wiki. I must admit to thinking about starting something like this, simply for help with my own translation projects from Russian to English - I think the main problem would be copyright... although the argument could be made that you're not making any profit from the translation (in fact, helping the creators make profit by opening it to a wider audience) and that it's only for educational purposes - I think that's one of the allowances of fair use in the United States. It gets into thorny legal issues that would have to be sorted out... it's a good thing that Princess Iron Fan is public domain, though I doubt that it would attract much attention anyway, given that this is a pretty small site and a somewhat obscure film. Esn 06:50, 8 April 2007 (CEST)

I'm not quite sure what kind of script you're asking for. A script to convert the SRT to the wiki format while inserting the foreign language translations? That's not very practical if the wiki has sections, but if all the wiki formatting is thrown out it won't be difficult. Transscripts of a movie are certainly copyrighted, and a translation is a derivative work so technically a translation wiki for newer films would violate copyright, but I doubt any action would be taken. Philip 09:11, 8 April 2007 (CEST)

Yes, something like that, I suppose. Technically, the images and quotes from Uproar in Heaven don't fall under the CCA 2.5 license, but as you said nobody will care. Creating subtitles would probably help DVD sales in most cases, except when there's already a DVD with English subtitles which is being sold for a much higher price than one without them, in which case it could conceivably lead to people buying the cheaper version instead and adding the subtitles on their computer. By the way, is the translation for Princess Iron Fan considered finished now? Esn 02:41, 13 April 2007 (CEST)

I don't consider the introduction to be finished, but I haven't found anyone who wants to help me. I'm thinking I might just give it another go myself and make something that might not be 100% accurate, but close enough. Philip 17:33, 13 April 2007 (CEST)

I'm not quite sure that's it's necessary to translate "sutra" to "scripture", at least in the introduction ("Tripikata True Sutra"). The word "sutra" is relatively well-known in the English language. Esn 10:58, 17 April 2007 (CEST)

Very well, fell free to revert that. I only have one thing in the introduction which I don't understand. Having tried different forums and even asking a real Chinese person without anyone being able to explain, I will ask my teacher. After that, I declare the subtitles to be complete (at least after I watch them once more). Philip 15:40, 17 April 2007 (CEST)

All done

I finally got that last things sorted out. As such, I declare the subtitles to be finished. I'll produce an updated SRT for testing when I get home. I might possibly still make some changes to prevent too long lines, but apart from that I don't think I'll mess with this any more. What do you think? Philip 13:47, 20 April 2007 (CEST)

Subtitle updated! Philip 17:47, 20 April 2007 (CEST)

Excellent. :) Esn 01:52, 21 April 2007 (CEST)